#58: The Power of Saying “No” in Business
Scaling a creative agency is rarely a clean, linear journey.
Most agency owners I talk to didn’t fail because they lacked talent. They failed because they tried to be everything to everyone for far too long.
In this episode, I sat down with Alexis Young and Danielle McNeill, partners at Vancouver based creative marketing agency Definitely Real, to unpack what really happens when creatives try to scale an agency without losing their soul.
This wasn’t a highlight reel conversation. It was about identity shifts, people pleasing hangovers, painful positioning decisions, and the operational maturity required to build an agency that’s actually sustainable.
Below is a breakdown of the biggest lessons agency owners can take from their journey from musicians turned entrepreneurs to confident operators who know exactly what they do (and what they refuse to do).
From Artists to Operators: Why Creatives Make Better Entrepreneurs Than They Think
One of the most overlooked truths in agency scaling is that many great founders didn’t start in business at all.
Alexis and Danielle started as musicians. Touring. Budgeting. Booking. Negotiating. Managing logistics. Delivering under pressure.
In other words, they were running businesses long before they called themselves founders.
The shift from artist to agency owner isn’t about abandoning creativity. It’s about organizing creative energy into repeatable systems.
As creatives, they learned early:
You can’t survive on passion alone
You need processes to protect your energy
Monetization doesn’t kill art, it enables it
This mindset is foundational for any creative agency trying to grow past founder led chaos.
The Real Tension: Creativity vs. Structure (And Why Most Agencies Get It Wrong)
Every creative agency eventually hits this wall:
“If we add processes, we’ll kill creativity.”
That belief keeps agencies small.
What Alexis and Danielle learned is the opposite:
Process doesn’t suffocate creativity, it unlocks it.
Through painful trial and error, they implemented:
Clear project postmortems
Better client qualification
Defined scopes and expectations
This allowed them to:
Do better creative work
Attract clients who trusted them
Stop burning emotional energy on misaligned projects
For agency owners, this is a critical operations lesson:
“Structure is what creates space for great creativity, not the enemy of it.”
Emotional Detachment: The Skill No One Teaches Creatives
One of the most honest moments in the conversation was around emotional attachment to work.
When you’re creating for clients, not yourself, you must build separation.
Alexis shared a hard truth:
“You can’t treat client work like your personal art project.”
For agencies, this shows up as:
Overreacting to feedback
Burning out emotionally
Losing confidence after revisions
Their solution?
Side Projects Save Agencies
Most creatives need something outside of client work that belongs only to them.
Music
Gardening
Sewing
Personal brands
Experimental projects
This separation protects your identity and makes client feedback survivable.
From an operations and leadership standpoint, this reduces burnout and turnover across teams.
The Rebrand That Changed Everything: From “All In One” to Clear Positioning
Definitely Real didn’t just change their name.
They changed their identity.
Originally, they positioned themselves as a strategy first, social heavy, do everything agency.
Sound familiar?
Over time, they realized:
Being everything made them excellent at nothing
Saying yes created messy delivery
Clients didn’t understand where their real value lived
The Strategic Shift
They made a bold move:
From social-first → brand & creative-first
From execution-for-hire → brand guardianship
From “we can do that” → “here’s what we do best”
This positioning shift:
Improved client relationships
Increased clarity in sales
Reduced delivery stress
Made referrals easier
This is the uncomfortable middle stage of agency scaling and the one most founders avoid.
The Fear Every Founder Faces (And Why It’s Inevitable)
Every agency owner hits the same thought:
“If we say no to this work, will there be enough left?”
Alexis described it perfectly:
The fear isn’t imaginary
The courage is doing it anyway
What’s rarely discussed is that personal growth precedes agency growth.
As they stopped people pleasing in life, they stopped people-pleasing in business.
The result?
Stronger leadership
Better boundaries
Higher-quality work
Clients who respected them
This is a pattern I see constantly:
Agencies don’t scale until founders evolve.
Sales Without the “Ick”: Reframing Client Acquisition
Sales was one of the biggest friction points.
Danielle openly shared the discomfort many agency founders feel:
Selling feels inauthentic
Discounting creeps in
Value becomes blurry
The breakthrough came from adopting The Four Conversations framework (Blair Enns).
What Changed in Their Sales Process
Sales became collaborative, not adversarial
Pricing felt fair and grounded
Losing deals no longer felt personal
The agency showed up as an expert not a vendor
Key insight for client acquisition:
A longer sales cycle often creates better clients.
Six-month decision timelines filtered out poor fits and reduced churn.
Slower sales = stronger relationships.
Why AI Won’t Save Your Agency (But Humanity Might)
Despite all the noise around automation and AI workflows, one truth stood out:
The human element still wins deals.
Even as tools improve:
Trust matters more than speed
Conversation matters more than funnels
Fit matters more than volume
For agencies focused on profitability, this is critical:
Automate processes but never outsource trust.
Hiring for Taste, Not Just Skill
When it comes to building a team, Definitely Real prioritizes one thing above all:
Taste.
Skills can be taught.
Taste, intuition, and aesthetic judgment cannot.
Hard Lessons Learned
Trust first hiring can burn you
Ignoring gut instincts makes it worse
Delayed decisions compound damage
Their biggest takeaway:
When your spidey senses go off, act fast.
This is a leadership muscle every agency owner must build to protect culture, margins, and sanity.
Clear Expectations Are a Leadership Responsibility
One underrated insight:
Bad outcomes aren’t always bad hires.
Sometimes they’re:
Poor role definition
Shifting expectations
Unrealistic workloads
They operate with a realistic view:
Average employee lifespan ≈ 2 years
Plan for transitions
Design roles that are human, not heroic
This mindset improves retention and operational stability.
Community > Cold Ads: How They Actually Win Business
Definitely Real doesn’t rely on paid ads.
Instead, growth comes from:
Personal networks
Referrals
In person community involvement
Creative industry events
This approach:
Pre-qualifies trust
Shortens ramp up time
Improves collaboration
For agencies under $3M ARR, this is often a more profitable acquisition channel than ads.
Final Takeaway: Build the Agency You Want to Live In
One line from the conversation stuck with me:
“We’re building the house we have to live in.”
That’s the real goal of agency scaling.
Not vanity revenue. Not endless services. Not hustle for the sake of hustle.
But:
Clear positioning
Strong boundaries
Aligned clients
Sustainable profitability
If you’re feeling stuck in people pleasing mode, take this as your signal:
The work gets better when you get clearer.
And clarity always compounds.
If you want to go deeper, you can run the full version at agencyuplift.co/mini.
Even if you never book a call, the clarity alone is worth it.
